The AI Guarantee That Doesn’t Exist

[00:00:00] Erik Sunset: You want AI in your health system. Everyone does. But here’s the problem, you’re waiting for a guarantee that’s never coming. Today’s guest calls it out directly. Healthcare wants ROI models for a technology whose business model is, in his words, fundamentally fuzzy. You roll out an AI tool, you think you know the cost, and then you wake up to a utility bill an order of magnitude bigger than you budgeted for.

So how do you move forward without that guarantee? Today’s guest says, “Stop asking what AI product should we buy?” And start asking, “What problem are we actually trying to solve?” Because right now, too many health systems are showing up to conferences saying, quote, “What do you have that’s AI?” And that’s exactly backwards.

He’s the CEO of a company built entirely around behavioral nudges, using AI to figure out why a patient may skip a mammogram and turning that insight into better outcomes at scale. From organizational readiness to [00:01:00] ambient scribes as an untapped data goldmine to why physician burnout still hasn’t budged, this is Martin den Herring, CEO of Lyrio, on The DocBuddy Journal.

Let’s get into it.

Erik Sunset: All right. Hello and welcome back. I’m Eric Sunset, your host of the DocBuddy Journal, and today we’re joined by Marten den Haring, and he’s the CEO of Lirio. Martin, thanks for joining us today It is fantastic to have a guest, and you’re joining us even from across the pond in jolly old London. So hope you’re doing well over there, staying dry. Um, and as we dive into the episode here, why don’t we give our listeners a foundation, maybe a little bit about you and what they need to know about Lyrio?

Marten Den Haring: I am based in Nashville, Tennessee. We love the volunteer state, great healthcare hub, as you know, in the US. Um, I’m originally from the Netherlands, from, from Europe. Uh, married to a, a Canadian. [00:02:00] Got two daughters. Uh, one is actually starting her master’s in, uh, in London in a couple of months and, uh, the other one is, is in university in, in Montreal.

Marten Den Haring: Uh, I’m a product guy, so my entire career really thought about building technology product. Um, many of them I call focused on end user productivity, uh, wireless products, um, productivity tools. But, uh, in, in the last fifteen years or so, really focused on using various AI tools, uh, and, and toolkits to, to, to deliver value to our clients.

Marten Den Haring: Uh, and it’s just been phenomenal to see how everyone is now AI literate and how some people think AI really means large language models. But, you know, as my gray hairs indicate, um, you know, AI was cool way before ChatGPT. Uh, so, so that’s a little bit about, uh, me. Lyrio is a fantastic company. Our mission is [00:03:00] as relevant today as, as ever, and it’s relevant in a global context, is how do we really understand what motivates people, what’s hard for them, so we can help them make better choices, uh, for their health and wellbeing.

Marten Den Haring: And we do that through something called behavioral nudges, or as we call them, precision nudges, really focused on very specific health objectives, giving people choices, supporting them in those choices, and, uh, making a difference, uh, not just, you know, at the, at the clinical outcomes level, but also, you know, helping reduce cost and, uh, hopefully drive revenue for some companies.

Marten Den Haring: So we’re, we’re focused– Our, our mission is really focused on behavior change and, um, you know, our, our clients, uh, tend to, uh, fall in, in every sort of segment of, of healthcare and life sciences, from providers to payers, retail pharmacy to, um, uh, life sciences or pharma companies. [00:04:00] So we, we’ve got, um, uh, a lot of ambition, uh, and it’s because there are a lot of people in the world and a lot of choices they’re making on a daily basis that we would love to, uh, influence and support them with.

Erik Sunset: That’s an important mission and one near and dear to, uh, to our, our show and our organization as well. Healthcare in the US needs a lot of help. Healthcare globally, uh, needs a lot of help. We shouldn’t be so, so self-centered here. And you mentioned something that, that, uh, struck a chord with me, that AI, in whatever form and however you’re choosing to use the term, AI is being embraced by healthcare in a way that healthcare really hasn’t ever, uh, uh, uh, took an interest in any other technology.

Erik Sunset: And it’s been fascinating to see over the last three years with sort of the widespread adoption of those LLMs, uh, that you referenced. guess before we get into the, to the, the real meat and potatoes of the episode, you know, what, what can we compare and contrast this with? Because being a, a longtime electronic health record guy [00:05:00] and, and revenue cycle beyond that, and now with physician workflow solutions at DocBuddy, there’s been no other tech embraced or, or rushed to be embraced like AI in healthcare.

Marten Den Haring: No, you know, I, I think what’s, what’s different even from, you know, some of the, you know, policy frameworks that enabled, um, you know, the, the adoption of electronic health records i- is that, you know, AI is impacting society at, at large. Um, every one of us are impacted in so many different ways by AI, some of which we see and other, uh, areas that we’re unaware of.

Marten Den Haring: And, and so healthcare is, is just a, a microcosm of, of that big shift, that big transformation that, that we are living every day. Um, and, and that’s really the big difference, is this is, this is a transformation at a scale, uh, that, that I don’t think we [00:06:00] have seen in our lifetime. And, and so it makes all other technology adoption comparisons really insignificant.

Marten Den Haring: Uh, that’s, that’s really the, the, the truth, I think. Now, the, the interesting thing about why healthcare though is healthcare is lagging in so many areas in terms of technology adoption. And, and so this is an opportunity for people in healthcare, uh, who are mission-focused, who wanna make a difference, who understand some of the deep problems that we have of really fulfilling our mission.

Marten Den Haring: They see this as the moment in time to really, um, finally get some superpowers to, to, to fight back, right? And, and deal with some of the inertia, you know, deal with some of the resistance. And, um, I, I think that’s why you’re seeing such a, a tremendous curiosity and, and opportunity [00:07:00] because, you know, EHR adoption, while a big deal, I think really was contained in terms of number of people it affected, number of people that, you know, were making decisions.

Marten Den Haring: Everybody in healthcare, um, whether they are employed by a healthcare organization or patients, everybody is impacted by AI and has opinions on, uh, how it should be used and how it shouldn’t be used. So it’s a big deal

Erik Sunset: A huge deal and, and really well said. And as, as healthcare hopes to get its arms around AI, organizations doing much better than others. You know, when we connected about getting you onto the show and getting scheduled, um, sort of the thesis statement we’re working off of is that health systems have a real shot at transformation right now. But most aren’t going to do anything until somebody gives them a guarantee that simply doesn’t exist. Can you unpack that for our listeners?

Marten Den Haring: Yeah. [00:08:00] You know, the big, the, the big barrier to, I think, technology adoption for healthcare organizations i-i-is to try and understand what the return on investment is going to be, right? ‘Cause if, if we’re all about, um, really treating people when they come in and, and have a problem with their health, if we, you know, focus on diagnostics, we focus on, you know, building, uh, treatment plans, we focus on understanding the right match, you know, of which medications to take as part of that treatment plan, and we’re trying to get you sort of to the finish line of that treatment plan, it, it, it’s, it’s a very, um, complex, uh, business, a very complex, you know, process to try and, and, and change.

Marten Den Haring: And so you, you need to really, you know, grapple with, um, decisions around, [00:09:00] you know, how you’re gonna take away budget from hiring more clinicians or investing, uh, more in, um, building out, you know, facilities or, or preventing facilities from closing in rural areas. Those are really sort of the brick and mortar, meat and potatoes issues.

Marten Den Haring: Thinking about how to now shift the mindset to, “Wait, should we now start thinking as a technology company? You know, do we really have the competencies to think about technology investments? And, and, you know, how should we measure the impact of, you know, investing in a new technology or, or signing contracts with a new vendor?”

Marten Den Haring: And so th– I think there’s just a, a huge opportunity in addressing problems, but the operating models and, and the, um, analytical frameworks that we’re using to try and determine whether or not we should make an investment, I think [00:10:00] are– it need to be overhauled, need to be modernized. You know, the, the way to look at ROI is no longer about, you know, do I save, you know, a, a certain amount of money on, on automating human labor.

Marten Den Haring: Um, the impact is so much greater, and if we continue to measure them really at discrete points, we miss the opportunity, uh, to really transform and, and, and look for signal of, of how we really are doing new things that we couldn’t do before. You know, we’re, we’re– tend to be more focused on, you know, can we do the same old things maybe in new ways?

Marten Den Haring: And ROI models, I think, will break down if that’s the only way that you look at it. So, so I think that’s, that’s the key issue is, you know, really tackling some of the hard problems for healthcare Um, are complex. They are not as easily measured in, in how we typically analyze technology investment, certainly not in, uh, organizations that really focus [00:11:00] on, um, caring for, for, for people and doing so mainly in a, in a model where we’re letting humans, um, you know, deliver the, the, the services

Erik Sunset: Yeah, uh, you’re right, and I’ve heard that echoed, you know, through time here on the show, and then just being, being out in the world. It can be really reductive, and the, the natural inclination is, let’s take a look at the P&L. Like, let’s see where the trade-off is. We want an ROI on this spend for whatever AI tool is up for discussion. How do we measure it? But it’s so much more than that, and to even go a step back, you’ve got an organization that recognizes they have a need, and there’s a great application for, for AI, and again, for whatever, whatever flavor is being discussed. But you can’t have the CEO, the owner, a department leader, whoever it may be, say, “Yep, approved.

Erik Sunset: Go buy another hundred Claude licenses. Let ’em, let, let ’em have it.” That’s not organizational readiness, and that’s certainly not transformation

Marten Den Haring: No. And you know what? You will [00:12:00] also prove some of those folks right, um, in, in creating very rigid ROI models because so much of the business model around large language models is fuzzy, right? Like imagine, uh, rolling out, you know, tools like, uh, some of these large language model frameworks or, you know, Microsoft Copilot or any of those tools that really can be put in the, in the hands of, of individual employees.

Marten Den Haring: At some point, you’re gonna think that you have a predictable cost associated with rolling out those capabilities, and then you wake up one morning and you realize that your, your utility bill was, you know, an order of magnitude greater than you ever dreamed of, right? And so there are going to be some costs that are not as easy to predict as in some other technology areas.

Marten Den Haring: And, um, it, it’s, it’s just a, a level of comfort and, and, and governance that we don’t yet have, uh, with, with [00:13:00] some of these new frameworks

Erik Sunset: No, you’re so right. And when, when we talk about, uh, success at the enterprise level or from the, the, the entirety of the organization, obviously ROI is a big part of that. But in healthcare, obviously patient outcomes, uh, avoiding burnout, whether that’s physicians, nurses, staff, you need to keep that to a minimum.

Erik Sunset: As we all know, healthcare is doing more with less, uh, human capital than it’s ever had to. when we’re talking, you know, again, at that, that very– from the starting blocks rather, for organizational readiness and not just looking at a vendor’s case study saying, “Hey, this could be us. All we have to do is buy it.” Surely that’s not the case. So what are some pro tips from you, Martin, around organizational readiness?

Marten Den Haring: You know, I, I think what’s important is to, to sort of settle on some, some terminology, right? Because when you think about how a lot of companies are using technology [00:14:00] today, they tend to have functional swim lanes. You know, we have our marketing, we have our different clinical, uh, service lines. We have a number of different swim lanes in the organization.

Marten Den Haring: They have their budgets, they have their tools, and, um, you know, in, in a, in an ideal world, it means that some of the business processes that we encode into technology are gonna live very much within the jurisdiction of those swim lanes. When we talk about AI transformation, the natural sort of way, and people are, are looking at this from a, uh,

Marten Den Haring: an outcomes perspective, or I should say, uh, uh, an evaluation perspective is, can we continue to do, um- The same things at, at lower cost within those business processes and those swim lanes. The real opportunity for AI is to be this foundational capability that really allows you to transform your [00:15:00] business in ways where you have to break those old business processes.

Marten Den Haring: You have to redesign some of the workflows, you have to rethink. You know, there is a big, um, big focus in, in terms of, of strategy around reimagining care delivery, right? When you think reimagining care delivery, you’re not thinking about a functional swim lane, right? You’re thinking about something that is far more horizontal, in some cases maybe even touch, you know, other stakeholders in the ecosystem.

Marten Den Haring: It’s not just about you, it’s about how you integrate and interoperate into that broader tech ecosystem. And so the, the first thing you have to do, I think when you’re embarking on this kind of AI investment effort i-is have a conversation with the business around what are some of these business objectives that we’re hoping to achieve through transformation.

Marten Den Haring: And, and if you start there, you can almost back into a discussion across the company on [00:16:00] how, uh, you can reimagine the design of, of workflow across these different areas, what the handoff should look like, you know, which areas you’re looking for efficiencies, which areas you believe, um, you know, need additional investment because you’re trying to do ne-new things that weren’t, you know, possible before.

Marten Den Haring: So I think you start with really understanding in, in the spirit of true transformation, right? Transformation is not incremental improvement. Um, how do we really transform the business? How do we reimagine care delivery, design for that, work backwards, and figure out where the real low-hanging fruit opportunities are to put some of these foundational capabilities in place to achieve those objectives.

Marten Den Haring: So, so start, start with the design, then work backwards to figuring out what technology is available to help you get there.

Erik Sunset: Oh, that, uh, those words are worth their weight in gold because we see it when we’re at national events or even state events for various organizations here in the [00:17:00] US, and we’re, we’re a tech vendor in the space as, as listeners of the show will be well aware, the, the crowd will come up to us and say, “Hey, what do you have that’s AI?” And the question back is like, “What do you, what do you need? Like, what problem are you trying to solve?” “Don’t know. We just wanna look at AI.” Well, that’s not going to help you, your patients or, or, uh, or your business. It is a business, uh, really in any meaningful way if you’re shopping for a category or product that, uh, isn’t attached to a solution.

Marten Den Haring: Yeah. And as I pick up my AirPod here, um, you know, it, it’s, it’s important to do research, right? ‘Cause, ’cause part of transformation and really helping seize this incredible opportunity is to develop competencies and skills that you may not have. So, so there’s still value in, you know, doing some, you know, basic [00:18:00] trial and error learning, you know, without having to, to scale, right?

Marten Den Haring: And, and, and I think through that curiosity and experimentation, you get better competencies and skills in our organization and, and, you know, you, you, you lay the foundation for how to think about, you know, uh, starting with design, how to start thinking about, you know, what new skills you may need, you know, within your employee base that you didn’t have before.

Marten Den Haring: And even, you know, in, in traditional areas like operations and, and, and financial modeling, how do we have to, to think differently about, um, you know, some of these investments going forward? So, so I, I don’t wanna minimize and say, you know, don’t, don’t dip your toe in the water, don’t, you know, uh, go out there and, and, and experiment, ’cause I actually think that’s part of the transform- transformation that we- we’re looking for, is, is just to discover what, what you’re not doing.

Marten Den Haring: So you have to take a risk, but you don’t have to take a risk at a large scale, and, and certainly don’t have to go all [00:19:00] in on, on very large contracts and investments before you actually have taken the time to understand what you’re getting yourself into.

Erik Sunset: I would, I would imagine that in some instances, and this is again talking to organizational readiness, you’ve made the decision, you have a clear solution that this AI either powered, enabled, or just pure AI tech is going to solve for you. but across all industry, there’s various skill sets, as you said.

Erik Sunset: Some folks are more technically oriented, some less so. And in healthcare, you know, you generally have a group, you know, when you’re talking about business offices, reception, um, nursing staff, you know, they’re very good at taking care of patients, and they’re very good at working in those, in those EHRs, whether they love them or not.

Erik Sunset: We, we know you don’t. but with AI, you are potentially asking a group that maybe isn’t all that technically oriented to use an interface to solve potentially very technical tasks, and that’s a thing of [00:20:00] beauty, uh, regardless of the AI, in question. do you see, Martin, anecdotally from either very sophisticated health systems or just your various healthcare customers of saying, “Hey, we have this incredibly complex problem. We now know that we can solve it with tool X, Y, or Z. How do I get my people to understand this?”

Marten Den Haring: know, it’s, it’s, um

Marten Den Haring: It’s rewarding to be in healthcare because

Marten Den Haring: You, you– Most, most of the time you don’t have to motivate people to learn new things and to think about, um, helping them, uh, grasp or understand new tools that are available to make them more successful in their work. You know, uh, I know there are a lot of jokes about lawyers, uh, but I don’t think there are a lot of similar jokes [00:21:00] about clinicians, and I think that’s for a reason.

Marten Den Haring: I think nurses, doctors, they are so focused on, you know, what they feel passionate about, about caring for patients, making them better, having an impact. And so if you feel that there is this new mysterious toolset that’s out there that could help, uh, you’re, you’re gonna direct some of that passion, some of that motivation at learning those tools and figuring out how they can be of help.

Marten Den Haring: So, so I think… I don’t wanna say that wholesale you get that for free, ’cause it sound, sounds a little, um, misplaced perhaps. But, but, but I think healthcare is one of those industries where you just can tap into the kinds of traits that people need to really embrace and adopt new tech-technology. So, so that, that’s one thing.

Marten Den Haring: I, I also think that, um, y-you, you have to guide conversations, meaning [00:22:00] if we agree that you need to involve the business in thinking about what transformation objectives are possible, and then starting to design new workflows to, to help achieve those objectives, you can’t just do that with a consultancy on the side.

Marten Den Haring: Like, “We got this. You go and take care of your patients and, you know, we’re gonna come up with this fantastic proposal.” You’ve gotta really embrace the people that are going to take advantage of some of these new capabilities and involve them in the design. And I think if you do that upfront, you’re gonna get the buy-in, and you’re probably gonna end up with a workflow that is way better than, you know, these third parties could ever imagine.

Marten Den Haring: Uh, just because in the end, what you’re solving for is to really get better at the mission that you already are, are serving. And, and nobody knows that better than, you know, the clinicians that are already, uh, working on, on that problem every day. So, so I, I think it’s, [00:23:00] in part, this sort of intrinsic passion and motivation, uh, that you can tap into to learn, and then you, you sort of can’t make the mistake of, of, you know, showing up with a plan as you’re implementing it and, and, and not involving them in the actual, uh, change management, uh, effort itself.

Erik Sunset: Sure. and you, you mentioned the mission there. The, the healthcare mission, obviously deliver stellar outcomes for patients, and if you wanna take it a step further, at an affordable price. I wanna touch on reimbursement with you lightly, and I promise lightly. Uh, value-based care is, uh, in the news constantly.

Erik Sunset: Um, whether it is the same definition that you expect it to be or somebody else’s different definition of value-based care, um, and this will give you a chance to brag about Lyrio a little bit, I think. Uh, but in past episodes, we’ve had Dr. Dan Blumenthal, um, on our show. Been lucky to get some of his time, and he’s the chief quality officer for CVA USA, big cardio care group based in the [00:24:00] Northeast. Um, and as the CQO, he’s obviously, uh, very well acquainted with value-based care, and some of my questions to Dr. Blumenthal were, you know, you, you can do everything you can within the four walls of your practice or, or in the procedure room or in the OR. But when you have patients leave, and some patients, uh, and the– we’re– I’m not trying to walk us down the big, scary socioeconomic and access, uh, discussion, but where you have patients that, that can and should be making better choices for their health but choose not to, they’re on your value-based care panel, how do you handle that conversation? Uh, to Dr., to Dr. Blumenthal, obviously, and he said that’s, that’s one of the toughest things about value-based care, is that while you have the patient in front of you, it’s all, “Yes, I understand. I’m gonna do more of this, less of that,” whatever it may be. Um, but it sounds like, uh, through my understanding of Lyrio and what you’ve shared, that you’re talking about positive [00:25:00] behavioral nudges at scale, sort of across larger, larger segments of the population, larger swaths of the population. So when we talk about value-based care reimbursement to bring this home and actually ask the question, you know, you need patients to stay out of the hospital sort of as, uh, you know, the, the ground floor of this. What are you seeing, uh, from your side of things on the ability to empower patients to make better decisions and be more accountable for their own health?

Marten Den Haring: It’s, it’s almost like our mission statement, right? So I’m glad you, um, you brought that up. Um, you know, pe- people Don’t make choices because they don’t wanna be healthy. Um, you know, s- some things that

Marten Den Haring: are, are, are hard for people May have to do with not fully understanding why there is a better [00:26:00] choice that they could make, right? We have to educate people. Why, why, why do I need a, um, uh, screening, uh, mammogram at, at my age? Like, w- I don’t have a history of breast cancer, uh, in my family. Like, why? And, and, you know, sometimes filling in a knowledge gap is what will make the difference between someone going for that screening or not.

Marten Den Haring: Um, other people may absolutely understand why this is important. In fact, they may have a history of breast cancer in their family, and the reason why they are not going to the screening that is recommended for them, you know, could simply be because they don’t have time. You know, you, you could, uh, be, uh, a, a mom of, of, of four.

Marten Den Haring: Um, you know, everybody, uh, in the family has, you know, something they need mom to [00:27:00] do, and somehow mom can’t find time for herself. A- and so how do you help mom overcome, you know, the, the time management issues to make time for that screening? Uh, that could be a huge help and the difference between her showing up.

Marten Den Haring: And then just a third one that we’ll just round out is, you know, some people may not go because they actually fear the outcome of the screening, and they think that, you know, by not going to the screening, they won’t have to hear, um, the, the, the bad news or, or any form of news. It’s, it’s, you know, out of sight, out of mind.

Marten Den Haring: Um, I, I think we have to realize that, you know, one of the biggest opportunities we have to keep people healthy and influence the choices that they make is to realize that we’re all different. We’re [00:28:00] all unique. Our individual context, and you said don’t go into the, you know, social determinants of health discussion.

Marten Den Haring: And, you know, sometimes that’s a heavy discussion because w- we’re truly focusing on sort of the economic part of, you know, the context. And, and that can be difficult, but for some, that might also be the difference between why I choose, uh, you know, to accept, you know, certain types of, of treatment plans or medications versus not.

Marten Den Haring: It could be an economic factor. But regardless of what the factor is, we have to realize that the more we can understand what’s hard for someone, the more we can understand what motivates them at a deeper level, the better we can get at supporting them and helping them overcome the things that are hard.

Marten Den Haring: Right? And, and that’s sort of the premise of Lyrio, is to say if, if the objective with value-based care- Is to sort of support that motion from sick care to well care. [00:29:00] If, if it’s, you know, about making sure that, you know, people don’t show up in the hospital, but have access to care closer to where they live, uh, maybe even virtual care options, that in and of itself may eliminate certain barriers.

Marten Den Haring: But at the end of the day, so much of the decisions we make or don’t make in favor of our own health have some clue in our daily lives. And we, we spend too little time inside a hospital. We spend too little time with clinicians for that context to be predictive and capture signal about what we are going to do or not going to do.

Marten Den Haring: So we need to move closer to the patient. We need to move closer to, you know, their daily context, and that’s where we can influence people’s choices. And even then, we have to serve those choices up responsibly. We’re not gonna say, “We’ll give you a [00:30:00] financial incentive over here if you just do this,” because it doesn’t really deal with sort of the core intrinsic motivation that we need to sustain some of these behaviors over time.

Marten Den Haring: We’re not gonna say, “Well, we ban or forbid this particular, uh, choice,” because again, that is not gonna change behavior, uh, the way that, you know, is sustainable. I think what we’re really have an opportunity to do is to use some of the amazing power that we get from, you know, the vast amounts of data we have about people, uh, the ease with which we can communicate with people digitally, and we can now involve them into that digital world so that they can make different choices in the physical world.

Marten Den Haring: And I think if we solve for that with modern technology, we have just, um, you know, uh, done something incredible. A-and in a world where a lot of the, the focus on AI is about, you know, what we’re gonna do in robots and, uh, interplanetary, uh, [00:31:00] migration, uh, I think this is actually really worth doing right now is, is how do we just help people live healthier lives on the planet.

Marten Den Haring: And, um, I don’t wanna make it sound too easy, ’cause it’s not, but I think this is where technology is absolutely ready to help with that.

Erik Sunset: That’s a, a very eloquent answer to a very, very poorly worded rambling question, so I just have to pay you the compliment there. You, you made sense of the, the noise and distilled it right down to what I was hoping you would talk about And then as we’re, uh, as we’re kinda towards the end of our, of our chat here, what didn’t I ask you that I should have?

Erik Sunset: Is there anything that’s been left unsaid that we need to let the listeners know about?

Marten Den Haring: You know, maybe, maybe I’ll, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll give you an opportunity to, to maybe comment on something ’cause you, you obviously at, at DocBuddy have, you know, a piece of the puzzle here of the infrastructure. As, as you are talking to your [00:32:00] clients, you know, you’re listening to their vision for how they can use AI to better serve their patients.

Marten Den Haring: You know, what, what are some of the things that you’re picking up on, uh, in terms of how digital tools can, you know, really help with, um, more continuous and, and, and maybe more effective engagement? Like, are those conversations you’re hearing at DocBuddy as well? And, and if so, you know, what, what, what seems to be the priorities you’re picking up on?

Marten Den Haring: And, and maybe that will trigger one more comment on my part.

Erik Sunset: Yeah. I’ll, I’ll, I’ll try to stay succinct here. There, there’s really two huge keys to what we’re doing at DocBuddy and the, the conversations that we have with our, with our customers and with our prospects. We mentioned EHRs, uh, earlier in the discussion, and something that the, the federal government and Medicare didn’t really solve for and didn’t really try to solve for other than throwing money at it, uh, in the form of state HIEs was, was [00:33:00] meaningful interoperability. And this ties into sort of the second leg of this, that we, we address provider workflow at the surgery center, at their clinic, on call at the hospital. when we talk about delivering better care and better outcomes, there’s two ways that are, uh, really core to what we do, and it’s that interoperability piece. this is, uh, said probably in bad taste. There’s a lot of notes apps on various different phones, and you could probably take your pick of any notes app that you’d like that you could make work for you in a clinical setting. But if that data doesn’t go anywhere, it doesn’t really matter. Um, so that’s, uh, one piece of it. then when you look at the, the rate of physician retirement and when you look at med school population numbers and how many new providers are graduating into US healthcare, uh, we’re on the precipice of an outright shortage. I think by 2030 it’s gonna be, for lack of a better term, a bloodbath for access to care, whether you’re in a major metro or [00:34:00] whether you’re in a rural setting. these two things, mobility and inter- interoperability, the interoperability piece helps keep the data flowing and then the mobility piece gives providers a little bit of their, their life back because that physician burnout piece, while the numbers can be skewed to look flattering in the surveys that I’ve seen from this year, that it’s just not getting worse.

Erik Sunset: Oh, it’s not getting worse. We’ve leveled off with physician burnout. We’re still redlining on physician burnout. So part of our core is to help give providers a, a, a way to step away from their desktops, from their laptops, do their documentation more or less when it’s convenient to them. Although their business office manager will insist, “We need all notes signed by the end of the day, please.”

Erik Sunset: And us, that’s a reality. So that’s a, that’s a very, uh, micro aspect of what, of what you asked me. But those two things come up regularly for us.

Marten Den Haring: I, I l– I love those examples. And, and m-maybe then, then just to, you know, [00:35:00] finish on, on, on my end using that as, as inputs. So, you know, I, I am– I’m a huge fan of some of the ambient scribe capabilities and, you know, the more accurate they get, you know, the, the more value we can extract from some of those recordings.

Marten Den Haring: ‘Cause they, they represent a new data source even for, uh, behavior change use cases, right? Because oftentimes when we’re sitting down with our, our clinicians, we share information about ourselves. And, and they may not be relevant in that moment for why I’m in the doctor’s office. But if I could mine that context, if I could see some signal there that allows me to better reach out and personalize my follow-through with some of that information, boy, is that a rich data source, right?

Marten Den Haring: So, so I think, you know, the, the opportunity to innovate, not just in, you know, making sure that we, we take that conversation and transcribe the right, you know, things into the HR where they get the right [00:36:00] codes and all that stuff is, is fantastic. I think the real, you know, additional upside that’s next that can be explored is, you know, what did I learn about the patient that I can now use in workflows downstream?

Marten Den Haring: Uh, I think a tremendous opportunity and, and again, it’s all about harvesting data and, and using it at the right time to better serve people. And, and your comment about clinician burnout too, you know, is, is something that… You know, I have a daughter who’s, um, uh, going to apply to med school here next year and, and, and hoping to at least curb the numbers a little bit.

Marten Den Haring: Um, but the, the opportunity to nudge patients, um, eventually will make treatment more effective. The ability to drive outcomes by making those moments that we spend with our patients count, uh, and we don’t see them back because they’re actually following through on the things we’re asked– [00:37:00] asking them to do, that should be extremely rewarding.

Marten Den Haring: But wait, there’s more. We can also use some of this nudging technology to also enable and empower clinicians to do things in a more effective way that, you know, means that you can, you can streamline some of the workflows. A lot of those workflows are gonna, uh, create efficiencies not just for them, but in that, uh, clinician-to, to patient, you know, communication.

Marten Den Haring: And, and so we see as a next frontier for our capabilities is to say, you know, when, when, when we sit at the table and we help redesign some of these workflows, yes, we need to focus on behavior change for patients. And then there is also an opportunity to empower and support clinicians, um, either next or, you know, in, in parallel.

Marten Den Haring: So I, I think those are fantastic examples and, um, it just shows you that there is never a [00:38:00] shortage of, uh, creativity and opportunities to innovate with tech, right? Thank God.

Erik Sunset: Yeah.

Marten Den Haring: would we do without that, Eric?

Erik Sunset: We’d be sending smoke signals, uh, and I gotta pick on healthcare a little bit, sending smoke signals or maybe sending faxes still, uh

Marten Den Haring: Oh, oh, but we do that

Erik Sunset: Yeah, right

Marten Den Haring: That’s a whole other show, Eric

Erik Sunset: I, I know I’m about to… I need to step off the soapbox here. Um, Martin, thank you so much for joining us. Uh, before you go, how can listeners connect with you online, and how can they get to your website?

Marten Den Haring: Uh, look me up, uh, on LinkedIn. Uh, that’s my, my, uh, favorite social media platform. Uh, Martin Van Haring, there are not too many of us on LinkedIn. Uh, and if you wanna narrow down the search term, look for Lyrio, L-I-R-I-O. Uh, you can also find us on www.lyrio.com

Erik Sunset: And of course, we will get links to those destinations in the show notes. Martin, thank you again. This has [00:39:00] been a fantastic conversation

Marten Den Haring: Was a pleasure and great meeting you

Erik Sunset: Thank you, sir