How Data and the Right Plan Can Lower Implant Costs with Tim Burney

Erik Sunset: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome back. I’m Erik Sunset, the host of the DocBuddy Journal, and today we’re joined by Tim Burney. And Tim is the CEO and founding partner of Advantien. If you’re not familiar with Advantien yet, let me make a quick introduction on Tim’s behalf and he’ll give us a little more detail as well. Advantien customized supply chain services help surgery centers, increase profits and improve efficiencies for orthopedic and spinal implants. Tim, thanks for joining us.

Tim Burney: Yeah. Thanks Erik. I, I’m, I’m thrilled to be with you. I appreciate that introduction. And if I can add to that, you know, the, the implant part of the business is a is one of the highest cost, if not the highest cost area within an ASC. Space. And there are great opportunities to sort of, you know, support the ASC efforts to manage that business in a more efficient more cost effective way.

Tim Burney: And certainly that’s what we strive to do at Advantien because we know that that’s really important to the ASC space. And by the way, you know, with the [00:01:00] ASCs, they’re, you know, they’re, as you know, and I think our audience knows very well, you know, surgeons are, you know, the ones that generally. Unlike the hospital where the surgeons go and they’re basically going and doing surgery, if that’s what they’re doing in, in, in this case they go to the ASC space and oftentimes they have ownership, which means that they care personally about all aspects of their business, right?

Tim Burney: They care about you know, delivering the best quality through their ASC. Obviously, they’re always. Concerned about and directed to provide the best patient care. And they do that every day regardless of where the point of care is. But at the ASC space, there’s a great opportunity to drive a low cost solution and, and to be as efficient as possible.

Tim Burney: That affects the patient in profound ways. You know, they’re coming in there and they get a great experience in an ASC in an ambulatory surgery center. We’ve happened to focus on the orthopedic space because of the high cost center that it is and, and some inefficiencies that are [00:02:00] built in. And so there’s opportunities to help those surgery centers by partnering with them, you know, fill in some gaps and, and help them be as efficient and cost effective as possible.

Erik Sunset: Well, you, you make a, a really key point here early in our chat that the, the ASC is one of the very few venues in healthcare where that value chain is totally aligned between the patients, the provider. The payer. Payer, and that’s great. As a healthcare consumer, we all are to some extent, or at least we, we know one. But because of that, you end up with sort of some cost pressures that may be a, a practice or a hospital doesn’t necessarily experience to the same degree that all I’m getting at here is that implants are like either the, the number one or the number two expense incurred at an orthopedic ASC.

Tim Burney: Yeah, that’s right. I mean, the only other one that that probably competes with it is, is labor. But, but the bottom line is it’s a controllable expense to an extent. Right. And the key to that, of course, is to understand, you know, what your cost means. I mean, the, [00:03:00] the challenge for the ASCs among other things is that, you know, they’ve got really good people and good people like to go to the ASC space ’cause it’s a great work environment.

Tim Burney: Like you said, you know, from a patient. Perspective. I mean, when you look at, you know, the surgeons, the nurses, everyone, they’re focused as they’re in a hospital, but they have more control in the ASC space to deliver this, this patient-centric sort of care that is a greater value. And, and by the way, ASCs right?

Tim Burney: They, if it’s an orthopedic ass, C specifically, That’s all they do. If it’s an orthopedic combined with some other specialties, there’s still, there’s, there’s a, there’s ano, there’s, they’re always focused on specific care as opposed to going to hospital where you have sick people and other things. But that’s, you know, that’s part of the discussion.

Tim Burney: But, but the bottom line is, yes, it’s a very, a potentially efficient, cost effective, very high quality space for, for patients. And so it’s important that, you know, there, there are solutions to [00:04:00] help ASCs. To, to partner with them and there are to help them identify those opportunities, help them drive the solutions, and you know, to, to, in a very high cost setting, you know, so that’s, that’s what we focus on.

Tim Burney: And other companies as well focus on.

Erik Sunset: Yeah. And, and to that point, you know, when you think about operating the ASC as a, as the business that they are, obviously patient outcomes are first and foremost, but to be able to continue providing any type of patient outcome you need to keep the lights on. You need to be in the black so to speak, in every procedure that you perform. So knowing that the cost of implants is a top two or top three expense incurred at the ASC, we know that staffing is really thin. Do you see it becoming sort of set and forget when you’re talking about managing the cost of implants? There’s a.

Tim Burney: Yeah. So the, the challenges of, of hiring, I mean, it, it’s in lots of spaces, right? Not just the healthcare or the ASC space, but everywhere, but [00:05:00] specific to the ASC space, what, what I see and what we see is that, again, they have good, really good quality people, but there’s still challenges. I mean, you know, and what, what do you end up, who do you end up hiring?

Tim Burney: Do they have specific to our discussion on, on implant and cost? Do these people they’re hiring have the specific knowledge and expertise to assess the opportunities to improve on cost efficiencies, et cetera, and the solutions that are available, whether we provide them or someone else does. Or to help to partner with these people who are the materials managers, who are the administrators, and to provide them with solutions.

Tim Burney: For example, when you think about cost, what’s the most important thing that you can do? Number one is understand what is your cost structure, right? What is the data around, you know, what are you spending for the specific implants that you are using? Right? And all surgeons have their own specific implants they want to use.

Tim Burney: So the goal should not be to. Drive them to another implant because [00:06:00] you’re gonna get pushed back and for good reason, that’s what they were trained on. So you think about that and you think, well, you know, how do we, how, what are the opportunities? You look at the data and you look at what they’re using and then understanding that data, right?

Tim Burney: So number one is getting the data, and it’s often available through different like envy and, you know, through H Ss D and that sort of thing. But a lot of times the, the materials manager, administrators, Maybe they know how to pull it, but then what do you do with that data? Right? What does it mean? And, and, and so what does that mean?

Tim Burney: Well what are you looking for? How do you compare it to, to what the benchmarking is? Maybe across the country or for a specific size, a s e or whatever the oppor, whatever that is. The bottom line is how do you identify the opportunity to drive cost savings? And that’s, that is truly in the data. So you need people that understand the the data.

Tim Burney: Number one, the nuances that exist between different types of implants. For example, there are over 150 different [00:07:00] implant manufacturers. In spine alone, I’m talking about those companies that manufacture implants, and then those companies that sell those implants sometimes at the same time, sometimes they’re different, but you need to understand those nuances between those different implants.

Tim Burney: You can’t just compare a Stryker implant to a Medtronic necessarily. Sometimes you, but you need to understand when you can do that. So the bottom line there is being able to have the insight and the expertise to make those decisions. So again, the ASC challenge is, Excuse me. Do you have the information when you have the information, what do you do with that information?

Tim Burney: So having support to understand how to use that information, how to make good decisions, where the cost benefits are, how can I drive it? And by the way, It’s very important that that data goes to the surgeon because what we have found to be the most effective way to drive change within the as c space, by the way, and it’s obvious, is through the surgeon, right?

Tim Burney: So the surgeon [00:08:00] is going to ask, why is this an opportunity? What do you have to show me? I mean, there’s scientists after all right? So, What is it that you have that can help me understand what we’re doing here? And then once you provide that, the surgeons almost always will be very supportive and will help drive that change.

Tim Burney: And so that’s number one in the whole process is just having the data and understanding what to do with it and then providing it to your surgeons in a way that makes sense for them and, and you can actually drive lower costs.

Erik Sunset: Yeah, let’s, let’s paint that picture a little bit for our listeners. You, you mentioned it that surgeons may have preferred or favored implants and that may. Just be because that’s what they were trained on and that’s what they know best. And that’s certainly fair. I mean, I know I have my favorite coffee shops and know what I’m getting when I’m in this part of town or another. But what does that conversation look like? Doc, we know you grew up on these, so to speak and these provide a better r o i for you.

Tim Burney: So to be clear, I don’t think the conversation is around changing what they use if they want to do [00:09:00] that and, and they’re open to that conversation. Certainly that is a conversation. I think the conversation really is around what they use and are there better opportunities for cost savings around what they use.

Tim Burney: As you said, they were trained on those implants. They’re comfortable using those implants at the point where they use those implants. They don’t want to have to think about, you know, how do you do this or that with the implant to make it work. They’re used to it, so you know, they keep using it. So the conversation really is around what they’re using and how do you get the best price outta what they’re using.

Tim Burney: Surgeons keep in mind when they go to the hospital, they’re not involved in that discussion at all, right? They’re, they’re not involved. They don’t necessarily know. Sometimes they do, but they don’t necessarily know the way they do in the ASC space. What the cost of those implants are. So it’s somewhat of a, a teaching opportunity, if you will.

Tim Burney: I mean, they’re, they’re brilliant people obviously, but this is a space that they need that support. So help them understand the implants that they’re using, what, what price they’re [00:10:00] paying, what is the opportunity for savings. It won’t always be a huge opportunity, but most of the time you’ll find areas, particularly in their high use implants, where there are opportunities for savings.

Tim Burney: And that’s really where you drive the point across.

Erik Sunset: That makes more sense then. And then to, to go back to another point you made around data. You know, it seems that pre covid there was sort of a, a, a yearning for more data, more actionable data at the ASC and at least from my perspective, it seems to be that post covid facilities, regardless of who owns them certainly some ownership is more interested in data than others. But there’s sort of like an been an embrace, at least from my perspective, that we really need to be measuring these things. The status quo isn’t good enough. We need to know, is this better? Is this worse? And you have to have a baseline to start. I’m, I’m sure everybody’s tired of the, the old trope, if you can’t measure it, you can’t manage it.

Erik Sunset: But it’s true. It’s a trope because it’s true. So what are you seeing in terms of the embrace of data at ASCs?

Tim Burney: You know, I see [00:11:00] mostly, you know the administrators are op, they, they, they want to, they want to understand the data. You know, the challenge is, as I said earlier, is for sometimes, how do I get the data? You know, and sometimes it’s there. Most of the time it is there in some form. And then what do I do with it?

Tim Burney: That’s sometimes very intimidating. I mean, for people like myself, I mean, I’m familiar with data and I know what we do with the data and that sort of thing, but I’m not, I’m certainly not an expert on how to manipulate it to get the outcome that I want, and that is the, you know, the information that I want.

Tim Burney: So I think oftentimes administrators, you know, they’re a little intimidated by that. So that’s a challenge. So I think having a, a team around them that helps them sort of understand that, understands that, whether it’s pulling it and compiling it, and, you know, providing the reports that are actionable so that they can use those to make their own decisions and to go with the, to the surgeon to make ’em as the real key.

Tim Burney: So I by and large see an embrace of that. The [00:12:00] pushback is when they don’t have that support, right? It, it, then it’s intimidating. So to have that support removes that intimidation factor I’ve witnessed, and I think then they’re willing to go, go that route. So the key is really having that support to help them understand what that data means oftentimes.

Erik Sunset: Absolutely. I mean, just because you’re an Excel pivot table Wizard doesn’t mean you’re gonna get anything useful out of it. So at least in my experience,

Erik Sunset: maybe that’s a reflection of me more than anything else.

Tim Burney: And by the way, pivot tables are foreign language to me. I’ve heard them, but.

Erik Sunset: Fair enough. There. So we’re, we’re talking about the cost of implants and we had a guest a couple of weeks back who one of her pro tips for ASC administrators, and this is coming from a long time, ASC expert, is that if you’re not negotiating, you really should be. So what, what are your thoughts there?

Tim Burney: I agree. I mean, there’s no doubt about it. I, I will tell you that in our [00:13:00] experience in analyzing hundreds of data, data from ASCs Orthopedic ASCs, literally taking their data, comparing it against our, you know, vast benchmarking data that we have that has some of the best, you know, lowest costs for existing implants.

Tim Burney: There’s almost. I’d say always opportunities for savings. So if you’re not, number one, identifying those opportunities, and then what good does it do if you don’t then go negotiate right toward that lower cost, you know? So I would agree with that a hundred percent. I mean you know, to, to you talk about status quo, to accept the status quo.

Tim Burney: When you know there are opportunities doesn’t make sense, right? I mean, why would you, for the implants that you’re using, it requires really limited effort to once you know the opportunities to exercise a negotiation with the device companies. And by the way, when you go to device companies, right there, Their goal isn’t always to provide the lowest cost.

Tim Burney: I mean, they provide a great deal of value. They provide value in many [00:14:00] different ways around the implant business, but when it comes to price, you need to go to them. They’re mostly not going to come to you and say, Hey, you know, here’s an opportunity for you to save money. You need to really go to them and have that discussion, and when you do go to them, Armed with the data, armed with, you know, the surgeon supporting you as much as anything and they support because of the data, you’ve got a high opportunity, a high chance that you’re going to be successful in that negotiation.

Tim Burney: So there’s no reason not to, or I should say, there’s no reason to be frightened or concerned that this isn’t gonna work or it’s a waste of time. For some reason, it’s not you. I would say you’re gonna be successful a vast majority of the time if you’re armed with the right information.

Erik Sunset: And as as a pro tip for all of our ASC administrators and ASC staff listening, what would your recommendation be to open that dialogue with your device rep?

Tim Burney: Yeah. Again, I, I hate to be redundant here, but the data, right, is to have the story, [00:15:00] understand what the story is, understand what you’re paying, understand why what you’re paying. We’re gonna assume that you’re paying too much, all right? And that you want to negotiate a lower price. Understand the benchmarking on that, you know, understand that, hey, your company has.

Tim Burney: You know, you’re paying a thousand dollars for this widget, this implant. Your company is has. We have, we know that we have benchmarking information that we can get it for 900, and I’m making up the numbers of course. And so once you’re armed with that and you. First go to the surgeons, because believe me, that is really the key.

Tim Burney: You have to share the information with the surgeons. You want a pro tip. Make sure you have the surgeons on your side. Why? Because if you don’t go to them and they understand what’s going on, The rep will then go to the surgeon and there’ll be some conversation like, you know so and so came to me and wants lower price.

Tim Burney: We’re giving you the best price of whatever the, in the region, in the state, in the country, whatever the story is. [00:16:00] And the surgeon will push back ’cause they don’t have any other information. So I. That surgeon needs to be armed before the conversation with the device company takes place so that when you have that conversation and that rep goes to the surgeon, or better yet you say, I’ve already talked to Dr.

Tim Burney: So-and-so and he supports this. And then when the rep goes to that surgeon, the doctor goes, yes, I do support this. I understand we’re paying this and this is where we should be paying. ’cause this is what your company’s charging other ASCs on the same implant. That’s really the key is surgeon’s on board and you have your facts straight before you go to the go to the device rep.

Erik Sunset: Yeah, that, I don’t think it’s redundant at all to be mentioning data. Data is a new currency, and in the right hands it can provide incredible outcomes. Whether we’re talking about for patients, you know, look at, you know, a million encounters, a million procedures done what gave the best outcome you know, on average.

Erik Sunset: Same goes for negotiating a price. Having a, having that benchmark is huge.

Tim Burney: Yeah, no question about it. And, and you know, if I can expand on that a little bit and [00:17:00] maybe take a little bit different direction, is data too expands onto when surgeons are comparing themselves to one another. Surgeons love to compete, right? So you don’t think about this, but from a business perspective to be able to provide, for example, Reports for the administrator that they could provide to the surgeons that might, you know, compare not just outcomes.

Tim Burney: ’cause docs, obviously they care a great deal about the outcomes, their patient outcomes. But again, remember they have a vested interest in this center and they want to provide the best solutions all the way around which, which results in the best patient care, right? And the most efficient, less costly.

Tim Burney: So part of that is, you know, when they deliver that care. How do I compare to my other, you know, surgeons, in other words, you know, I’m using the same here and here, or I’m not using it. You know, maybe they’re maybe one surgeon’s getting you know, a similar implant from one company that another surgeon’s [00:18:00] getting from another.

Tim Burney: And the discrepancy in price is enough that they go, Hey, what’s going on here? That’s a valuable conversation for a lot of reasons, but one of the reasons is it raises awareness, right? So around that data, again, it raises the awareness of the surgeons. Ideally, that surgeon who’s paying more, that that’s using the implant, that’s that costs more, lemme put it that way, is going to say, you know, you’re right.

Tim Burney: You know, we need to look into this. Right? And that’s probably what they’re going to do. Yes, they’re competitive, but they’re also on the same team, right? So they want what’s best for that center. They want what? What’s best for the patients, but they want what’s best for their centers. It relates to the business aspects of this.

Tim Burney: So that’s also valuable on the data side, right? So there’s lots of uses for that, that ultimately drives to the best outcomes, the best price for, for the implants

Erik Sunset: Absolutely. I mean, I’ve never met a surgeon that wasn’t competitive. Personally,

Tim Burney: to say

Erik Sunset: I’m not sure that it exists.

Tim Burney: And good for them. Yeah.

Erik Sunset: Yeah. And you know, we’re, we’re talking about the profit pro profitability [00:19:00] of cases here. You know, when you look at it from more of a macro lens, where do you see the biggest advantage with being able to negotiate prices?

Erik Sunset: Obviously you don’t ever want to do a procedure as a facility that you end up the. To a outcome for the facility or to go from a number to a number? Can you speak to at all?

Tim Burney: I sure can. So there’s, there’s a definition I want to throw out that everybody I’m sure understands that listens to this, and that is the difference between. Two, two basic types of payers, and one is a global payer. I call it a global payer. Those payers, like Medicare, for example, excuse me, that do not reimburse for implants.

Tim Burney: They pay one fee, a capitated rate. You know that that encompasses an area of care that includes the implant. So the importance there is get the lowest price. To fit within that sort of that case. Right. So, and there are other payers that reimburse for the implants. So it’s interesting because you think about that in terms of [00:20:00] cost and you could make a case that it doesn’t really matter, it does matter.

Tim Burney: But I’m just saying that, you know, you can make a case because you’re gonna get reimbursed. So what difference does it make? Well, that takes me to my, to my. To what you asked, I think, and that is case costing is important, right? So you have to understand, first of all, which, which the people at the at the a s E do understand.

Tim Burney: You have to understand what is the payer makeup of that, and then do a case cost of it, which I. Almost all ASCs, and we provide this service as well, almost all ASCs do, because they want to understand if they’re going to do this case, first of all, are they gonna lose money? And sometimes they’re, you know, they do it because it’s, it’s they for different reasons, but they’re willing to lose money at times.

Tim Burney: Are they gonna make money break even, whatever the case might be. So they look at those payers, they look at the cost, they look at how the costs impact. Whatever the payer is, and then they make an assessment. So case costing is a real key component of that case. Costing, of course, is where you take different costs that are, that go together, [00:21:00] that go into the surgery, labor or time, et cetera, and determine whether or not the reimbursement for that is going to be sufficient to cover the cost of that, you know, of that procedure.

Tim Burney: So, That’s kind of a key to that. As far as understanding that and understanding your, your reimbursement makeup is a key component of that as well.

Erik Sunset: Well, this goes back to something we touched on earlier. When you’re determining case profitability, you’re gonna end up looking at data across a number of sources, potentially your

Erik Sunset: clearinghouse, your contracted rates with the payers everything that’s in your practice management software. Then you’re looking at the cost of implants.

Erik Sunset: I imagine that gets overwhelming in a hurry if you’re not a data expert, I guess.

Tim Burney: it, it really does Erik. And that’s a great point. You know, when you, again, when you think about it and, and go back to something we spoke about earlier, and that is, you know, the hiring component of it. And, and again, these people are so good at what they do, but they spend so much time sort of. Chasing different components of what we’re talking about that it, it takes them away from maybe a patient-centric fo [00:22:00] focus at times or just doing their, their job that they need to get done before they leave at the end of the day.

Tim Burney: Right. It sort of diverts them away. So it’s, that’s where it know, obviously I believe that having some support on that is so important. One of the areas I want to kind of mention in conjunction with this discussion is, When you think about the two types of reimbursement, you think about the, those payers that reimburse for implants, okay?

Tim Burney: They’re often understanding those contracts is another component of that. And it gets to, again, to the point of how much can these people understand that are sort of managing this business, right? So understanding those things, and I’ll give you an example. There are contracts written that say that if the implant is less than a certain number, they won’t reimburse.

Tim Burney: For example, I’ll make up a number again, less than $500, they won’t reimburse. Well, there are implants less than that. So, you know, I, I sort of scratch my head and wonder what that’s all about. But you know, you could understand higher than, but lower than. But it’s a component. So you need to [00:23:00] understand that when you’re looking at these contracts and what does that mean?

Tim Burney: You know, does it mean maybe you think you’re getting reimbursed and you aren’t, or whatever the case might be. So, and there are lots of little things like that that you’ll find in contracts, and I don’t think they’re gotcha things. They have, the reason, I don’t know what they are all the time, but the bottom line is having the capacity and the time for these people to understand all of those nuances can be a challenge.

Tim Burney: So having support to help with that is, Is key.

Erik Sunset: Yeah, the, the capacity and the time, obviously critical to the process, but it, it almost seems to me that if you’re viewing this as a game to be won eventually, you probably will win. I mean, that’s better than doing nothing.

Tim Burney: Yeah, I mean, no doubt about it. I mean, look, there are solutions there. It, it’s really not rocket science. I mean, it’s not, I mean, data is the key. I mean, understanding the data is the key. And then, you know, I, I think there’s just so m so many components of this that. That the [00:24:00] materials managers and the administrators and those people have to deal with before those implants are even used to make those good decisions.

Tim Burney: That I think it’s really important to win that, you know, you really either need to individually be educated on it, which is a big, big ask a lot of times on all these components, or have the support to, to actually win and you can win at the end of the day. I mean with the right support, with the right, you know, in the right areas, customized support, which you know where you do need support, whether it’s ordering or whatever the case might be.

Tim Burney: Understanding the contracts. Understanding how to drive an R F P, offloading that from the people who are doing that usually, which is, you know, the administrator along with the materials manager or other people contracts, negotiators, et cetera. Having the support to sort of offload a lot of that and to understand the data I.

Tim Burney: And to, to, to know what the solution opportunities are. And that’s really key as well. And that comes from the data too. That’s really what’s important. And absolutely you can win. Absolutely. We, we see ASCs win all the time on those.[00:25:00]

Erik Sunset: Well, I’m glad to hear that. Like we said earlier, as a a consumer of healthcare myself, I think it’s really important that the ASC continue to thrive and grow and expand. And, and speaking with the ASCA C e o Bill Prentice earlier this year, he shared that one of the biggest challenges ASCs face is just awareness.

Tim Burney: Yeah, no question about it. I mean again, they’re, they’re doing a lot, you know, they’re doing an awful lot and You know, it goes to a lot of different things we’ve talked about, but absolutely. Awareness and, and we’ve spoken about that a great deal here. I d i I kind of talk about the data as the awareness, you know key and I think it is in, in what we’re talking about.

Tim Burney: But there’s also, by the way, there’s also process efficiencies, you know, along with that, I mean, how do you, like a case is done. There’s, it’s, there’s often a delay between when a case is finished. And when the invoice arrives and it’s, it’s adjudicated and it’s paid for that delay, oftentimes it shouldn’t be more than 24 to 48 hours.

Tim Burney: Certainly when we do it, that’s what we strive for, is 24 to [00:26:00] 48 hours. But oftentimes that delay can be weeks or even a month. And what does that mean? That means that the ASC cannot get their, you know, their invoices into the payer to be reimbursed. What is that? That’s velocity of cashflow. That’s the, you know it’s cashflow period, you know, so it’s important that that’s another area where sort of the awareness on how can we do this better, right?

Tim Burney: How can we sort of manage that? And again, it’s oftentimes it’s a load on those people in the ASC who are responsible for that, to manage all of that. There’s often mistakes on these, on these surgery invoices and things that need to be dealt with. And that takes time, a lot of back and forth. So getting that invoice into the payer, When they’re being reimbursed, reimbursed for the implant is key.

Tim Burney: That’s cashflow, it’s health to the surgery center you know, and all those sorts of things. So that’s another aspect of this that I think is really important for surgery centers to focus [00:27:00] on. And again, you talk about winning. I. You need to be aware of it to win that game, right? You need to know about it.

Tim Burney: First of all, what’s the solution? How do I fix this? And then you can win that game. And that’s an important game, by the way, to win. ’cause as you’re talking about your lifeblood, your cash flow. So yeah, that’s another piece of this, right? So.

Erik Sunset: Yeah, it sure is. Lot of, lot of gems in here for our ASC listeners, Tim, is there anything else you think the ASC crowd has to know? What’s your number one pro tip?

Tim Burney: Yeah, like I said earlier, and I’m just gonna throw this out again. Well, I’ll, I’ll do a couple things and I’ll get to my pro tip. You know, I, again, the data is important. Collect it. Analyze it, compare it. If you don’t know how to do it, get support to, to do that, and then go to the surgeons and get the sort surgeon support.

Tim Burney: I don’t think that’s foreign to anybody, but to be successful in any of these negotiations, I. Is to get the surgeon’s support so that you can have that on [00:28:00] board. When you know the device rep goes to the surgeon, they have those discussions and you’ll win those games. You will win those games. One other thing I’ll say is that, you know, look to support in the other areas too.

Tim Burney: I’ve mentioned cash flow. You know, I. Look for areas, you know, how can we do better? Be open to that. Maybe that’s a better pro tip, right? Be open to the opportunities that exist to just be better. Don’t settle for status quo. It’s an easy thing to do, right? It’s, it’s easy to go to that legacy thing that you’ve always done, but you know, and I know ASCs are striving to get better and better, but be open to that and think about what are the opportunities here, and listen to the advice.

Tim Burney: Take the good advice and, you know, run with it. Don’t be stuck in the past and in the status quo and be willing to move forward.

Erik Sunset: Well put. And with the competitive landscape sort of tightening in on the asc, you have a lot of investment from pe. You have health systems, sort of seeing the writing on the wall. There’s a lot of interest in the space now. And for the privately owned centers or the [00:29:00] physician, physician owned centers, maybe with a management partner, now is the time to embrace data.

Erik Sunset: Now is the time to embrace measurement and it really does all come back to data in my view.

Tim Burney: Now is the time and, and there’s no reason to delay, right? There’s no reason whatsoever. Yes, embrace that data, embrace solutions, look for opportunities to improve on efficiencies, on cost reimbursement, et cetera. I think that’s what that, that will drive success. I.

Erik Sunset: I am with you there, Tim, for our listeners that wanna learn more about you and about advancing and where should we send them?

Tim Burney: Yeah, I mean, Advantien.com is our website. Thanks for asking that. www.Advantien.com, that’s a d V as in Victor, A N T I E n.com. And From there, there’s, there’s different ways to sort of converse with us and we’d be pleased to, you know provide you know, preliminary data for them and show them the opportunities assess their data, et cetera.

Tim Burney: So lots of opportunities there and I appreciate you asking. Thank you. We, we’d love to hear from people.

Erik Sunset: My pleasure and it was [00:30:00] great to have you on. Tim, on behalf of the entire DocBuddy team, thanks for listening to the DocBuddy journal. We’ll catch you again next week.